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Best size tyre/wheel for comp safari racing.

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Re: best size tyre/wheel for comp safari racing.

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Quicker steering - All things steering related (mostly comp safari) info dump

By steve200TDi October 17, 2018 in Modified Vehicle Builds & Special Projects

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Steve200tdi.

As some of you may know I have a comp safari racer (and race!)

I have been researching all things steering related when it comes to making the steering faster and thought an info dump would be good so that other people can add to it too!

A standard steering box is about 3.5 to 3.75 turns lock to lock (that may be with no steering stops!) with small comp safari tyres on.

I have heard (mainly on ebay descriptions and trawling the internet) that you can redrill the swivel housing arm to move the track rod end pivot point further towards the swivel pivot point. This would reduce your lock to lock by about half a turn, but your steering box would have to work harder as the leverage has reduced. You would also need to make a tapered drill to drill the tapered hole for the TRE! I was going to go down this route for my comp safari racer, but now I'm looking at steering quickeners!.

I had original thought that a steering quickener would damage the steering box because of the quicker rotation, you can get them in 1:1.5 or 1:2, but it appears not. So by opening up the power steering pump holes to improve oil flow then a quickener would apparently work as you need faster oil flow. Again this is from word of mouth on forums that I have read. Now this set up apparently works well, but it would be good to get some more feedback on this.

Another thing I have read is about lightening the input shaft or quill shaft as it's sometimes known. Apparently ACR ( https://www.automotivecomp.com/ ) offered this product to enable the box to turn easier, but again I have found no information on this at all!

Other things that contribute to sharp precise steering are:

Caster - If you have a spring lift then you may need castor correction radius arms or castor correction swivel housings - I suspect I may need to look at this as its quite twitchy on the straight!

Steering damper - I guess this would help, but by how much I'm not sure.

That's all the info I have found so far and would be grateful for people to add to this with their experiences and knowledge so that it's here for everyone and also for me to use to formulate a plan for my steering system for next year!

Thanks in advance.

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I have also drilled out the P38-style PAS pump for more flow, see this thread :

Big difference, just don't go too far. If you are running the vee-belted PAS pump, then you can *probably* go a little bigger with the drill bit, as they run lower pressure (900 vs 1500 ish on the P38 pump).

Adwest appear to have been bought by :  https://magal.co.uk/  

David Sparkes

I'm not sure this will EXACTLY suit, but the IDEA could perhaps be adapted.

Steve Parker does a kit to go with fitting a 38A box to a Series. The essential element of this is that the drag link is connected to the track rod, which is naturally fitted closer to the passenger side swivel than the drag link normally is. This effectively quickens the steering, but adds a little weight to the feel at the steering wheel. SP counts this as a positive.

The SP product page . The Forum topic that alerted me to the existance of the product .

3 hours ago, Bowie69 said: I have a quick ratio Adwest box on my RRC, I do like it... and solves a lot of the problems you are describing above! It is 2.9 turns lock to lock, and works very nicely indeed.... however, trying to find them for sale on the internet is a little tricky at the moment. Perhaps your google skills can come up with one   I have also drilled out the P38-style PAS pump for more flow, see this thread :   Big difference, just don't go too far. If you are running the vee-belted PAS pump, then you can *probably* go a little bigger with the drill bit, as they run lower pressure (900 vs 1500 ish on the P38 pump). Do you have a spring lift? If so then yes, under race conditions, castor correction will help of course. Though, I would first be looking at condition/preload of swivels, as well as all the other bushes on the chassis, especially given your little 'incident' recently  

Thanks Bowie, interesting reading and it appears that Range Rover Blues may be describing what I've been hearing

Quote from Range Rover Blues:

'But the key bit is the torsion bar, if it is reduced it will transmit less steering feel and allow the valve to turn further, providing more power assistance. At least up to the point where all the power assistance is not enough.'

But as you say, could be tricky to do at home and by how much, at least I know a little bit more info and your pas pump investigation is interesting too.

Yes, quick ratio steering boxes seem to be expensive new and don't come up second hand very often! So I'm crossing that mod off the list for now!

It's true that I can check the swivel pre load first on my axle and I know of at least one bush that needs replacing too (one of the rear axle radius arm bushes), but will also check to see what caster I have at the moment. Does the caster relate to the angle of the top swivel bearing cap - say if I put an angle gauge on it would that tell me the correct castor angle?

2 hours ago, David Sparkes said: I'm not sure this will EXACTLY suit, but the IDEA could perhaps be adapted. Steve Parker does a kit to go with fitting a 38A box to a Series. The essential element of this is that the drag link is connected to the track rod, which is naturally fitted closer to the passenger side swivel than the drag link normally is. This effectively quickens the steering, but adds a little weight to the feel at the steering wheel. SP counts this as a positive. The SP product page . The Forum topic that alerted me to the existance of the product . Regards  

Thanks Dave, I did see this a while ago, probably in the thread you have linked too. That describes the same principle I was explaining for re drilling the swivel housing.

I think I read somewhere that Discovery 2 box is slightly quicker, what about the P38 box....it again looks different so mounting holes would need to be modified, but any stronger?

And rather interestingly Bearmach sell a quick ration drop arm....which is just longer!

https://bearmach.com/rhd-quick-ratio-steering-arm-ba-228

But doesn't say how much longer!

landroversforever

You mentioned that the steering is quite twitchy on the straight... If you've got wheel spacers on that won't be helping it.

You can check the castor angle with the top of the swivel pin, but obviously make sure its all straight ahead and that you're measuring parallel with the car. Can't remember what the angle is of the top of my head. Ebay and Amazon have some lovely little digital inclinometers. I bought one on the recommendation of the Project Binky lads.

4 hours ago, landroversforever said: You mentioned that the steering is quite twitchy on the straight... If you've got wheel spacers on that won't be helping it. You can check the castor angle with the top of the swivel pin, but obviously make sure its all straight ahead and that you're measuring parallel with the car. Can't remember what the angle is of the top of my head. Ebay and Amazon have some lovely little digital inclinometers. I bought one on the recommendation of the Project Binky lads.

True, I have got wheel spacers, but decided to leave them on as a) I could get more lock, but with small tyres they mat not hit the radius arms if they were removed anyway! and b) They're so god damn tight I couldn't remove them!!

Yes, I think an angle finder could be going on the Christmas list!

I have one of these, very compact which makes it easier to get into awkward spots :

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Digi-Pas-Pocket-Size-Digital-Protractor-Inclinometer/dp/B001NPJGL0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1539797483&sr=8-1&keywords=digipas

Not exactly a heap of money either.

If you want to turn that fast it is possible that the steering pump flow capacity is not enough. Especially @ low engine revs..

If you go to fast the pressure drops and power is lost.. so you need more effort to steer. If you are fast enough the powersteering is going to act in the opposite way: it even slows down steering.

15 minutes ago, Carloz said: If you want to turn that fast it is possible that the steering pump flow capacity is not enough. Especially @ low engine revs.. If you go to fast the pressure drops and power is lost.. so you need more effort to steer. If you are fast enough the powersteering is going to act in the opposite way: it even slows down steering.

That's very true so any mods you do do would need the pas flow raised to a suitable flow rate!

One of my fellow racers has just commented on using electric column power steering to assist the whole system!

One of these:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vauxhall-Corsa-C-Combo-Electric-Power-Steering-Column-Fixed-EPS-Race-Rally/273512538624?hash=item3fae9e2200:g:NAcAAOSwdzlbcDwm:rk:8:pf:0

And a controller like this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Corsa-B-C-Kit-Electric-power-steering-controller-box-With-ECU-plug-EPAS-/142463712424

Food for thought for later down the line!

9 hours ago, steve200TDi said:   Thanks Dave, I did see this a while ago, probably in the thread you have linked too. That describes the same principle I was explaining for re drilling the swivel housing. I think I read somewhere that Discovery 2 box is slightly quicker, what about the P38 box....it again looks different so mounting holes would need to be modified, but any stronger?   Steve

Steve, the disco 2 box is quicker, but does need a bit of work to fit. It has a larger sector shaft as well. Unfortunately, it is not very strong, as the worm is made of cheese. The P38 steering box is actually slower. The simbughinis had 2 steering dampers (one in front of the axle and one behind), the fast ratio box, the arm redrilled and the castor reset on the axle. Quickest way to get more caster is to redrill the swivel balls, I think. This has the advantage that the diff stays in the same orientation

13 hours ago, Bowie69 said: I have one of these, very compact which makes it easier to get into awkward spots : https://www.amazon.co.uk/Digi-Pas-Pocket-Size-Digital-Protractor-Inclinometer/dp/B001NPJGL0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1539797483&sr=8-1&keywords=digipas Not exactly a heap of money either.

That's the one I've got too. Great little bit of kit! 

cackshifter

Just a mention of the Corsa B power steering - the principle is fine  - but in this case  you are talking essentially a wiper motor assisting - they were, shall we say, not known for their reliability or durability on Corsas. I'm sure you won't be bumping up the kerb to park or doing intergalactic mileage but...

My brother has the Corsa set up on their 205 gti rally car but I don't know how good it is. However that will just make the steering lighter not quicker.

Oooh:  https://simonbbc.com/bulldog-land-rover-defender-quick-steer-extended-20mm-longer-drop-arm-right-hand/

20mm longer, whatever that means to the turns lock to lock I am not sure...

Not entirely dissimilar to BA228

Except on pricing.

This place is apparently £525+VAT for a new quick ratio box:  http://www.aztech-engineering.co.uk/steering.html  

I suppose my objection, if you want to call it that, to using a steering quickener, is it is just another part to fail, and non-standard. If the pitman arm fell off, then you just stick a stock one on and carry on driving, same for the Corsa PAS system -though fiddling with the pump will likely sort out the assistance.

Yes, the Corsa steering would help with assistance and wouldn't make it quicker.

Regarding the quickener, yes its another thing to go wrong, but that is what they are designed to do (steer quicker!) so it shouldn't brake! But I would be more annoyed if I broke a £600 steering box! At least the quickener is not exposed to trees, but it could see a bit of shock loading, but it should handle that!

Yep, of course, I suppose what I'm saying is that minimum mods to get it would be my vote, so a pump tweak, and a longer pitman arm seems the 'KISS' solution to both issues.

Yes, it's certainly worth a bit of measuring to see what 20mm does to the lock to lock count.

Have you considered training to make your arms work faster?  Or one of those little "ball/knob thingys" so you can rotate the wheel quicker?

47 minutes ago, SPendrey said: Have you considered training to make your arms work faster?  Or one of those little "ball/knob thingys" so you can rotate the wheel quicker?

The Ball/knob thingies are probably outlawed by the MSA for speed events I'm guessing, the kickback through the wheel could be painful! 

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This site will detail the efforts of Ken Powell and Jonathan Stevenson as they compete in the 2008 MSA British Cross-Country Championship (BCCC) . This site will be updated regularly and will have full reports and photo's posted after each round.

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BCCC Championship Report After finishing all 6 rounds of the 2008 BCCC competition with three top 10 finishes and 3 disappointing rounds, Ken and Jonathan were placed 12th overall in the final standings in their first season in their Mattserati. It had been a steep learning curve for the team and many lessons had been learnt along the way. Ken and Jonathan would like to thank Mudhut Off-Road, TruFlame Welding Equipment, Pattonair Ltd, Banners Nottingham and Total Off-Road for their support during the year. Without this, competing in the British Cross Country Championship would still be a distant dream.

BCCC Round 6 Report The final round of the 2008 British Cross Country Championship was held at a wet and windy Walters Arena, South Wales. This event took place Friday 7th and Saturday 8th November to give plenty of time for an end of season celebrations on Saturday evening and Sunday morning! Due to work commitments the team arrived at the South Wales course very late on Thursday night and had little time before the event start to prepare and yet again missed out on the all important walking of the course, when will they learn! After the all clear at scrutineering and signing on, the duo set off first the first run of the wet and rocky course. A puncture early on slowed the Mattserati and the pair stopped the clock at 15 minutes 17 seconds. After a quick wheel change they were soon lined up for run 2. This run was hampered by another puncture but due to a course blockage the team were prevented from finishing the lap and an average time was given. Wondering if they had been cursed with punctures, the team then watch 6 consecutive competitors all cross the finishing line with either 1 or 2 punctures! The team then remained issue free until Run 5, the final run of day one, when the Mattserati became stranded when a steering joint failed. A tow back to the pits was required and the Solway Recovery team duly obliged! Storms overnight left the course very slippy for Saturday but the team were determined to try and salvage a reasonable result from the final round. Yet again Ken's driving and feel for the Mattserati improved on the second days racing and although in worse conditions, managed to improve on his lap times set the previous day. However run 7 saw another disappointment for the team when the throttle became stuck open causing some very hairy corners, whilst trying to drive and identify the cause of the problem. For the sake of the screaming engine the team decided to pull off the course and not risk further damage. Although the problem, a sticking throttle cable, was identified and a temporary handheld throttle was created they had lost too much time and a maximum time was given. Back at the pits area a replacement throttle cable was fitted and the team, although disappointed, carried on with the remaining 4 laps. The team finished the day without any further issues and posted some very competitive times. Walters Arena had lived up to its reputation as being a 'Car Breaker' and due to this, and the teams persistence, they finished the event in 20th place overall.

BCCC Round 5 Report After a wet season of events, it took a trip to Wales for Round 5 of the BCCC to see some sunshine. Radnor Forest was the venue for the penultimate round and would prove to be as challenging as ever. The weekend started well with Ken and Jonathan progressing well in only their 2nd time driving on Rally tracks. On run 2 the pair were heading down a rutted forest track into a left hand bend when the car jumped out of the ruts and into a rather large tree stopping them dead. The result was a damaged Panhard rod which completely ripped off when the car set off again. Undeterred and unaware of the actual problem, Ken continued to the finish with the car steering itself in the ruts. Unbelievably, the time was only a few seconds off the previous run and kept the team lingering just outside the top 10. With a new Panhard rod installed the team push on and posted top 10 ten times for the rest of the day leaving them in 10th position overnight. Sunday started well with Ken posting the 7th quickest lap on the first run and the following lap was also going well until at the halfway point a Tomcat had ground to a halt with no drive from the gearbox, blocking the track. After a push from several drivers and navigators, who were all now stuck behind it, the stricken vehicle rolled down the hill and into an area of safety. Ken made his way back to the finish knowing that the good run was wasted but an average time would be given. For run 9 Alan Wilson joined Ken in the Navigators seat. The Mattserati was performing well until a petrol leak caused the car to catch fire and remind everyone how dangerous motorsport can be. The fire had unfortunately burnt the engine's wiring loom and the Mattserati was unable to continue. With 2 further runs remaining, the team could do no more than take maximum times resulting in 26th place overall. A disappointing end to a good weekends racing. The final round at Seven Sisters in November will see the pair complete their first season in the BCCC. The team know that at a course renowned as a 'Car Breaker' a finish is imperative in their hunt for a Top 10 Championship finish.

BCCC Round 4 Report Yet another wet weekend for the British Cross Country Championship, this time at the new venue of Tiverton in Devon for Round 4. Ken and Jonathan were looking for a good result to get them back into the top 10 championship placings after round 3 in Lockerbie. Arriving earlier than previous rounds, the pair had chance to familiarise themselves with the 4 mile course over farmland on Friday. This proved to be worthless as by Saturday the fields had turned into something resembling the Battle of the Somme. Lining up for the first time on the start crews were entertained and supported by a group of cheerleaders - complete with pompoms and ballet shoes! A rear puncture early on run 5 didn't slow the pair until several corners from the finish, where after a quick shunt to negotiate a tight hairpin, the engine died and wouldn't restart. The tow truck, affectionately known by the team as Plugger, helped out to bump start the stricken Mattserati and a maximum time was posted. This all but ended any hopes of a top finish dropping Ken to 19 place. Overnight rain lead to the track filling up with water for the Sunday runs, which tested the teams new washer/wiper systems to their limits. At times there was as much water in the inside of the vehicle as outside adding an internal wiper to the teams winter to-do list! New team recruit Alan Wilson was given the chance to navigate for 2 runs as reward for his efforts over the weekend as part of the pit crew. As Ken got to 'grips' with the conditions and learnt how to get the best out of the vehicle, lap times start to improve. The improvements continued throughout the Sunday runs and concluded with the 5th fastest run time on his last run. This left the team satisfied with 9th place overall after the earlier disappointments and puts them back into the top 10 of the championship standings.

BCCC Round 3 Report With the long drive to Scotland and the long, fast stages of Castle O'er, preparation would be key. This was just what was lacking for the team having spent most of the last 3 weeks in the workshop replacing the clutch again, the windscreen, refurbishing the dampers and welding the various cracks in the frame that had appeared after the unforgiving terrain of Driffield. With limited access to the service area at Lockerbie it was up to Ken and Jonathan to be both crew and service team. Arriving later than planned (again) on the Friday night, the pair were still fitting components to the car after midnight. This left only a few hours on Saturday morning to cycle the near 10 mile course to note any major hazards - and there were plenty! Sitting on the start line, the pair braced themselves for the high speed ride through the forest, aiming to "keep it on the track". They did just that and returned with a time of just over 16 minutes putting them in a respectable 15th place first time out. This type of high speed event was a completely new experience for the team with top gear straights and fast flowing corners. The cautious first run, a hold up on the second and relatively steady third run of the day left Ken wondering where he could get some speed for the final attempt of the day. Pushing hard on the fast gravel tracks, the steering became increasingly vague resulting in the car veering off into a ditch high in the Scottish hills and the team collecting a maximum stage time. Not disheartened by the sudden drop down the leaderboard, Ken came out fighting on the Sunday resulting in 3 runs under 15 minutes. The final run of the day of 14 minutes and 14 seconds helped Ken grab 20th place overall for round 3 and 12th in the championship.

BCCC Round 2 Report Having achieved a top ten finish at the first round of the BCCC at Baden Hall, Ken Powell and Jonathan Stevenson were in good spirits on the way to Driffield for the second round. The waterlogged course proved troublesome for the pair early on as they struggled to clear the windscreen. Several methods of attempting to wash the windscreen ended up with Ken pouring water from a drinks bottle! The Mattserati buggy held up well on the punishing course until the end of Saturday when the clutch failed. The evening was spent removing the gearbox and making a trip to nearby York Land Rover Spares to collect a replacement clutch. An early start on Sunday morning to put the gearbox back in, saw the pair ready for the first run just after breakfast. Some fast times were posted with no problems up until the early close of the event after a hot incident with a Milner protruck and several fire extinguishers. The premature end to the event caused a delay to the results and the drive home was spent thinking about preparation for the next round just 3 weeks away. The Photo and Video pages have now been updated, so please take a look. Thanks to compsafari.co.uk for providing these.

BCCC Round 1 Video We've just received a short video for us to use on this site from Ray at Windust Operations. This is now available to view on our Video's page.

BCCC Round 1 Report It was 9pm on Friday 11th April when Ken Powell and Jonathan Stevenson arrived at, a wet and soggy Baden Hall, for the first round of the British Cross Country Championship (BCCC). However, the lack of light was an advantage as they could not see just how muddy the ground was until Saturday morning arrived. Saturday began with a quick walk of the 4 mile course, as Ken was familiar with the site, having raced there previously on several occasions. Marches 4 x 4 had set out a course which encompassed various surfaces including grass, concrete and gravel - all of which were very wet! After donning the waterproofs and attending drivers briefing with the other 64 competitors, it was time to line up in numerical order and wait for the first 32 drivers to complete their first run. Whilst queuing, the engine started to splutter which added to the tension in the cock pit and having reached the start line, the course was closed. A twenty minute delay was the result of number of competitors getting stuck due to the ever increasing slippery conditions. The run started with a spin in the woods and didn't get much better. By the end of the lap, the team were relieved to have made it around in one piece. It was a steep learning curve for Ken driving on the championship controlled all terrain tyres for the first time. Ken had opted for the General Grabber AT2 tyres which had been very gratefully supplied by the team tyre sponsor Mudhut Off-Road . For the second run, part of the course had been abandoned leaving laps of just 1.5 miles each for competitor to drive for the rest of the day. Unfortunately, run 2 saw the vehicle sustain damage. After hitting a tree, part of the bodywork was torn off and Jonathan was sent back on foot to collect it later. The next 2 runs were uneventful and at the end of Saturday, Ken lay in 18th position, 1 second behind fellow Midlander, Alan Kirkland. Sunday saw conditions improve significantly with sunshine and clear skies. With the course reopened to its full length, Ken posted top 10 times on all Sunday runs. This pushed him up the leaderboard, finishing in a very respectable 9th overall. Ken was delighted with the result saying "It's amazing to get a top 10 finish in our first race in the British Championship, especially in a new motor with the control tyres". The good result has helped the team gain an additional sponsor - Truflame Welding Equipment, for the next round at Driffield on 7th and 8th June.

BCCC Running Number Announced Ken has been allocated running number 33 for the BCCC in 2008.

First Race Today saw Ken race for the first time in the Mattserati. He decided to enter the Peak & Dukeries Comp Safari at Eckington as a shakedown event ahead of the BCCC season to see how the Mattserati would perform in tight and twisty conditions. As the course was very wet it would also test Ken's ability to cope with a windscreen and the washers and wipers ability to keep the screen clear. Despite the course layout not being suited to the Mattserati, Ken put in a very competitive time on his first lap. The second lap would see Ken post the quickest time of any competitor so far. Over the next 6 laps Ken continued to improve his times and eventually took 1st place by 41 seconds. Eckington proved to be a successful outing in both terms of the result and the driving experience gained. A short video can be seen on the Vehicle page.

Mattserati Arrives 2008 will see Ken drive a new motor. After much thought, Ken has decided to compete in the BCCC in a Mattserati rather than the Land Rover Special 88" he has been driving for the past few years. The Mattserati is more suited to the BCCC due to a longer wheelbase and greater suspension travel. More details to follow shortly......

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10 October 2022

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• Amtel-Vredestein starts tyr...

Amtel-Vredestein starts tyre production at Moscow Tyre Plant

Moscow - Amtel-Vredestein NV has announced that it had started producing its Amtel brand tyres at its recently-purchased Moscow Tyre Plant (MTP).

The production of MTP's own Taganka tyre brand, however, has been suspended.

The Russo-Dutch tyre maker revealed its intent to take over the 60-year-old plant on 26 July and expects to formalise the acquisition by the end of the year.

Amtel-Vredestein said after announcing the takeover that it aimed to bring the facility to full capacity of 2.2 million tyres per year, from the current 30 percent, immediately.

“I applaud our team's ability to quickly adapt the production output at the facility to meet extraordinary demand for high performance Amtel tyres in Russia,” Amtel-Vredestein chief executive Alexei Gurin said.

The tyre maker also announced that it had shut down the rubber mixing facility at the plant to reduce the environmental impact of tyre production on Russia's capital.

Amtel-Vredestein plans to ship rubber compound from its existing facility in Voronezh, Russia.

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