pga tour players lie angles

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• WRX Club Techs

Tour Players Iron Lie Angles

By kirkj01 June 30, 2007 in WRX Club Techs

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Hi Everyone,

I note there is a lot of discussion over lie angles of irons and everyone seems to have their own prefernces. I am interested in tinkering with my lie angles - especially the shorter irons as I feel I hit it left a bit much - I also have a strong grip but am uncomfortable weakening it.

I am interested in knowing what the trends are with the tour players. Both out of curiosity and with a possibility of making some changes myself. I have not found much in regards to this.

Does anyone know what lie angles Bubba Watson or Angel Cabrera typically go for? I remember reading that VJ favour 2 or 3 degrees flat.

Personally I am quite tall but have always favoured hitting the ball away from myself a little. Certainly don't like having the ball too close to me. I would like to be able to play softer fades into a green rather than draws.

Any thoughts, advice, comments are most welcome.

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Interesting see all of those low member numbers. Sean2 is the only one I recognize from the thread.   Gotta love when someone renews a decade-old thread like this. : )

i bet most tour players have a variety of lie angles in their set-up. im sure its not unusual to see slightly upright for longer irons, slightly flat or std. for middle irons, slightly flat for short irons and wedges...

Angel plays red dot(1* flat)

Bubba plays green dot (2* upright)

This is just my own personal opinion. But I find it somewhat hard to believe that Vijay would favor a flat lie when he is 6'5". I am the same height and every iron in my bag is at least two degrees upright. I know it is different for everyone, but i don't think pros would go to that extreme, especially being as tall as he is.

BJB718 got it right. Many players use different lie angle adjustments with different clubs.

A titleist rep once told me that most guys (at least titleist guys) are close to standard, and that you rarely see more than 2-3* of adjustment. According to him, Els is 1* upright, and he's like 6'5".

With stiffer shafts you don't need so much upright bending as you get less droop.

I play normal X100s but I would bet some of the tour boys have theirs tipped a bit to stiffen them up.

Plus, lie angles are not the whole picture without shaft length and stiffness as well.

I remember an article about Darren Clarke where it said his longer irons were about 1-2' up and lower ones about the same flat. Something about the flatter lies promoted a fade and a softer landing into a green

Found it http://golfdigest.com/equipment/mybag/inde...4clarkebag.html

Theoretically, that should work by having the toe catch the turf first but that's not the way to hit reliable fades and I would not trust it.

And even if it was repeatable, which is doubtful, sometimes I like to hit shots other than left to right with my short irons.

This is just my own personal opinion. But I find it somewhat hard to believe that Vijay would favor a flat lie when he is 6'5". I am the same height and every iron in my bag is at least two degrees upright. I know it is different for everyone, but i don't think pros would go to that extreme, especially being as tall as he is.\

I'm 6'5". My Pings were 3º upright. My Callaways are standard. Different manufacturers, different lie angles. I asked my fitter about this and he said among the different OEMs the lie angle can vary as much as 4º. He said they are like shoes. Your foot size is no different, but you might wear an 11 in one brand and a 12.5 in another. I have a Ping putter, which I was fitted for, and it's 2º flat.

HarboursideTC

I find that my swing plane changes with the length of the club. Using 62*/5 iron as standard, I play my long irons standard, my mid irons 1* flat and my 9,PW, GW and SW 2* flat. This change really helped me straighten out my short irons, which I tended to pull left.

I have read alot about changing lie angles. For me this works best because I tend to hit my longer irons harder with a more upright and FULL swing. When I back off on the shorter irons, my swing path shortens and my plane gets a little flatter. This isn't unusual. Look at Tiger. He has a more upright two-plane wing with his driver and a flatter one-plane swing with his irons.

NotEvenJail26

I played X100s off a 38.5" 5 Iron, all were about 2-3° up and the toes were absolutely disappearing into the dirt. Had know idea about his until I got on a LM that takes photos of impact. Way too much droop in the shaft. I now play satin PX 6.0 at a flatter lie angle with much better results.

Theoretically, that should work by having the toe catch the turf first but that's not the way to hit reliable fades and I would not trust it. And even if it was repeatable, which is doubtful, sometimes I like to hit shots other than left to right with my short irons.

If the ball is still anywhere near the impact area when the club is hitting the ground, you have bigger problems in your swing than the lie angle.

Lie angles do not affect ball trajectory because either the heel or the toe is catching the ground. They affect ball trajectory because if you take a lofted face and rotated it upright or flat, the face is now pointing left or right. The effect is larger with more loft.

thanks guys i find this interesting information.

i grew up playing regular shafted irons and used to hit the ball a lot straighter - or rather did not hit the short irons left so much. but my swing was certainly different. very loose and used to hit it way too high.

as i have got older and stronger i have changed to stiffer shafts (currently use proj x flighted 7.0's) and certainly strike the ball much better than i used to... trying very much to keep my head a lot stiller and concentrating on solid contact. just get annoyed when i throw away shots by missing greens to the left. i think one of the answers can be in adjusting the lie angle of the shorter irons.

Remember just because someone is 6'5 doesnt mean they need upright clubs, its the length of a persons arms in comparison to their height which makes most of the difference.

i have heard that adam scott has a really nutty setup as far as lie angles go, but it seems there are a lot of people that are like that. i am going to check my lie angles and whatnot on tuesday and i think my long irons may need some adjusting, but the other irons are in good shape. my wedges DEFINITELY need some adjustments. i hit a draw with almost every club in the bag but my wedges. they look very upright at adress and i tend to pull my wedges BAD... sometime 25 yards offline!!! and that really stinks when you're 100 yards away to not even hit the green. i'm 6'2" and i play 1 flat on my irons and my putter is bent flat as well. i know a ton of golfers and a bunch that are shorter than me need upright lies. i just can't bring myself THAT close to the ball... different strokes...

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6 foot 3 but half inch over and 4 flat. Oneplane swing for life. I took my time and hit every club on the board after each bend. Some may vary a half a degree but for the most part 4 flat. I used to just stick with two flat due to concerns going so flat. After doing the last adjustments the ball is flying straighter than ever. There is really no cookie cutter formula. Takes some trial and error or a solid fitting sesion.

but i am guessing that once you get it right it makes all the difference in the world?? golf must be a very diificult game for many beginners:)

kells i am also guessig you chose the hibore xl tour because it sits a little open as well - how do you like it?

Love it. LOOOOOOOOOW spin head just like I wanted. I am switching to Adams Staff for All clubs starting in August. I have my tour rep on the hunt for the Tour 4250 DF. The XL Tour is sweet though. I feel it is a very low spin head. I got the head from the tour rep at the FBR this year. Cleveland has been good to me but Adams is the best treatment I have recieved as a professional. Excited about the switch. You can't go wrong with the XL if you have spin issues.

V Jay is not 6'5". I bet he's closer to 6'1". I am 6'3" and was standing next to him at the US Open and was definitely taller than him. Also, even though I am 6'3", I play my irons 2 degrees flat. It's all a matter of your swing and how far away you stand from the ball. V Jay likes to play fades, so maybe that's why he plays his irons a little flatter.

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This is getting pretty funny talking about how tall all of these tour players are, If I didn't know any better I would think that you are talking about basketball players. Nobody mentioned here is six five, more like six three. I think that you can get stats on players on pgatour.com

Viking Golfer

Yeahhh - Vijay is 6' 2", and he has long arms. Long arms means the need for flatter lie in your irons, especially if you try to play a fade shot.

VJ is 2 deg flat from Standard Cleveland Specs.

VJ puposely plays 2* flat to help him hit a fade much like his open face angles on the driver.

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• 9 years later...

I don't think lie angle is as important as people think. I've played everything from 7 degrees flat to 4 degrees upright with success with all setups. You definitely have to make adjustments for the clubs when they are that extreme but it's do able. With flat clubs I had to bend the knees more and bend over at the waist more. With more upright I had less knee flex and bend. I hit the center with both extremes. I find my most comfortable position is with a club about 2 degrees upright but I wouldn't say my shots were any worse or better than with standard lies. Just made my address position more comfortable. If you think you are hooking badly because your club is 2 degrees too upright id think it's a swing issue not a club issue.

10 year old thread lol

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Interesting see all of those low member numbers. Sean2 is the only one I recognize from the thread.

Gotta love when someone renews a decade-old thread like this. : )

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I was researching this yesterday... how timely. I go blue dot 5 - pw and black dot wedges.

Also Webber and few other low numerical members. It's nice not getting yelled at for bringing back an old thread like on "that" forum.

I'll bet there's few more classic old threads that I've forgotten about.

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Many tour players play their wedges flatter than standard. It helps when they hit flop shots, because to play that shot you generally lower your hands at address.

Hi Everyone,   I note there is a lot of discussion over lie angles of irons and everyone seems to have their own prefernces. I am interested in tinkering with my lie angles - especially the shorter irons as I feel I hit it left a bit much - I also have a strong grip but am uncomfortable weakening it.   I am interested in knowing what the trends are with the tour players. Both out of curiosity and with a possibility of making some changes myself. I have not found much in regards to this.   Does anyone know what lie angles Bubba Watson or Angel Cabrera typically go for? I remember reading that VJ favour 2 or 3 degrees flat.   Personally I am quite tall but have always favoured hitting the ball away from myself a little. Certainly don't like having the ball too close to me. I would like to be able to play softer fades into a green rather than draws.   Any thoughts, advice, comments are most welcome.     cheers

Everyone is uncomfortable when changing their grip. Unfortunately, that is just part of golf when you are trying to get better and more consistent. It is going to be harder for you to hid fades if you have a strong grip.

EDIT: I did not realize this was a 10 year old thread haha.

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Inside Collin Morikawa and Viktor Hovland’s gear tweaks ahead of the Zurich Classic

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Collin Morikawa and Viktor Hovland have teamed up this week at the 2022 Zurich Classic in New Orleans. The young superstars combine for only 49 total years of age (Morikawa is 25 years old, and Hovland is 24 years old), but they already have eight PGA TOUR victories between them (Morikawa has five, and Hovland has three).

With Morikawa currently ranked No. 2 in the Official World Golf Rankings, and Hovland ranked No. 5, the Morikawa-Hovland duo is sure to be both a fan favorite — and a betting favorite to win the event, too.

Ahead of the 2022 Zurich Classic, GolfWRX.com spoke to both players to gain further insight about why they made their respective gear changes.

Viktor Hovland

Leading up to the Masters, Hovland was using a Ping G425 LST 9-degree driver head, which has a relatively flat lie angle to influence a fade bias. Hovland, however, who already plays a natural cut shot, noticed he was struggling to draw the ball.

To help combat the issue, Hovland and Ping Tour rep Kenton Oates experimented with different loft and lie angle settings. The two eventually settled on a setting in his Ping G425 LST 9-degree head that shifted the lie angle upright by 2 degrees. All things being equal, a more upright lie angle will typically help golfers draw the ball, whereas a flat lie angle will influence a fade.

According to Hovland, the upright driver setting also matched up better with the lie angles on his Ping i210 irons, helping him achieve more consistency throughout the set.

”We had a hard time drawing the driver, because it was too flat,” Hovland told GolfWRX.com at the 2022 Zurich Classic on Tuesday. “I have pretty low hands at impact, so we figured it’d be easier to make it more upright so I didn’t have to work as hard to draw it. When I do draw it, with that current setting, I tend to draw my irons too much. We just kind of matched it up to the rest of the set.”

While many PGA TOUR players would be concerned using an upright driver, since they tend to guard against a left miss, Hovland doesn’t worry as much about missing to the left.

“Most of the time when I’m playing well, it’s not going left too much,” Hovland said.

Collin Morikawa

You may not think five grams is a lot of weight, but for Morikawa, it can make a huge difference in feel on the greens.

Typically, Morikawa uses a TaylorMade TP Collection Juno putter with 2.5-gram weights in the heel and toe portions of the sole. When he plays on relatively slower green complexes, however, he says he wants something a bit heavier.

Ahead of The 2021 Open Championship, which Morikawa won, he replaced the 2.5-gram weights on his putter with 7.5-gram weights. Ahead of the Zurich Classic, he’s doing something similar by replacing the 2.5-gram weights with 5-gram weights.

Although the change only equates to 5 grams of additional overall head weight, it’s significant for Morikawa, who’s going from the lightning fast Augusta National greens to the relatively slower TPC Louisiana surfaces.

“I just added a little more weight to the putter,” Morikawa said on Monday at the 2022 Zurich Classic. “For me, it’s what I do on slower greens, like what I did at The Open. Instead of trying to hit it harder, or do something different, it just matches my feel a little better, and helps me work my way from fast greens to slow greens.”

For amateur golfers, take this as a lesson to not underestimate the power of just a few grams. Adding or subtracting weight, especially in certain areas, can drastically change both performance and feel. If you’re using a putter that has interchangeable weights, we recommend messing around with different configurations to see what feels best for you, or consult with a professional fitter to get dialed in.

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Tour Lie Angle

By DBake , September 25, 2006 in Tour Talk

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• 6 years later...

Most tour players are tall so I would imagine they would need a more upright lie angle to offset this.  The tour pros who play a draw might want a more upright lie angle. But most tour pros use a very strong left hand grip so I would imagine an upright lie angle would cause them to over-hook too many shots. A flat lie angle might be necessary to offset the incredibly strong left hand grip (3 knuckles visible when looking down the shaft) so that the player hits a mostly straight shot. I know the PGA Tour player avoids big hooks because they don't land softly enough on those fast greens. The high fade lands softly and doesn't roll off the green.  I'm guessing they keep their lie angles neutral so that they can hit draws or fades at will.  Draws into the wind (they will land softly) and fades downwind. I recently went to a PGA tour event and watched them hit a lot of draws. Which surprised me because I thought the pro trajectory was primarily a fade. Watching them, a draw seemed to be their natural ball flight, at least with the driver. The fade was harder for them to pull off---at least off the tee. I watched them hit a lot of draws with the irons too.

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The pros primarily hit there stock shot, and they can make a draw land just as softly as a fade.

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Originally Posted by cutshot878 Most tour players are tall so I would imagine they would need a more upright lie angle to offset this.

In seven years they should have grown taller for sure...

David in FL

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Originally Posted by David in FL Don't complain, do you see that avatar?!

Downwind with a green sloping right to left and the pro's can stop a draw?  Maybe with a short iron.

Originally Posted by 14ledo81 The pros primarily hit there stock shot, and they can make a draw land just as softly as a fade.

I watched Brian Duncan (Web.com Tour player) recently hit a rocket launched sky high 200 yard draw (with a 7 iron) that was actually hit into a 15mph headwind and when the ball landed on the green pin high it kept going for 15 yards and off the green.  I watched him on the back nine of the 4th round of 2nd stage Q-school in Brooksville, Fl. He was -15 under I believe, just back of his playing partner and medalist Robert Karlsson. We were allowed to walk down the fairways with the players and caddies and I had a great view of these towering draws (into the wind) from the fairway and 3 wood stingers off the tee. To watch a world-class professional strike a golf ball is an awe-inspiring thing.

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• Irons & Wedges

Question about Lie Angle

By FreddyTheBearCat January 2 in Irons & Wedges

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Freddythebearcat.

Let me start off by saying I'm not a great golfer so I don't know how much it matters but, here goes: I had a couple of lessons and the instructor basically said that I should think about adjusting my irons 1° upright.  I think it's because my miss hits are toey? Anyway from reading online and videos etc. based on my height and wrist-to-floor (5'11 & 33") I should actually bend my irons 1° flat. 

Before I do anything, just thought I'd get some advice.

Thanks in advance!

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GolfSpy SAM

2 minutes ago, FreddyTheBearCat said: Let me start off by saying I'm not a great golfer so I don't know how much it matters but, here goes: I had a couple of lessons and the instructor basically said that I should think about adjusting my irons 1° upright.  I think it's because my miss hits are toey? Anyway from reading online and videos etc. based on my height and wrist-to-floor (5'11 & 33") I should actually bend my irons 1° flat.  Before I do anything, just thought I'd get some advice. Thanks in advance!

Hey hey!     This is one of those “there’s not really an easy answer” questions - mostly because everyone delivers the club differently. 

 Golf Tec used a VERY un-fancy device - a sticker on the club - and then the tech drew a vertical line on the ball in sharpie. When you hit the ball, the line transfers to the sticker and they can see if it’s vertical or at an angle. lol. It’s so silly, but it works. 

 For me, I consistently delivered the club 2° flat, so when I ordered my new set, that’s how I ordered them. 

 I’ve reproduced this technique since, just out of curiosity, and with these (new, bent 2° flat) irons, the line transfers vertically. 

 Ultimately, getting fit would be my recommendation. It’ll cost you anywhere from $50-150 (typically), but it’s worth it (IMO) in the long run. (For what it’s worth, some places will fit you for free if you buy a set…)

 For me, it’s worth doing every so often, in case I’m in the market for a new set of irons - then I can order them directly to my specs. 

  Good luck!!

• doubleduhric and GregGarner

RickyBobby_PR

1° is about 2-3 yards. Ignore height. @Golfspy_CG2 is 6’7” and when he was fit at Titleist TPI the fitter put him in standard length titleist irons and thought about going 1/4” short, IIt they also left him at standard loft.

What you need to do is use a sharpie marker on the ball and see what you need. There’s also a good thread on wrx on how do this test. 

https://thesandtrap.com/blogs/entry/18-sharpie-test-easy-way-to-check-your-lie-angles/

• RollingGreens , MattF and David Leighton Reid

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

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Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

1 hour ago, Samsonite said: Hey hey!     This is one of those “there’s not really an easy answer” questions - mostly because everyone delivers the club differently.   When I got fit at a GolfTec, I was measured at 2° flat - I’m a SMIDGE under 6’, but I round up  Golf Tec used a VERY un-fancy device - a sticker on the club - and then the tech drew a vertical line on the ball in sharpie. When you hit the ball, the line transfers to the sticker and they can see if it’s vertical or at an angle. lol. It’s so silly, but it works.   For me, I consistently delivered the club 2° flat, so when I ordered my new set, that’s how I ordered them.   I’ve reproduced this technique since, just out of curiosity, and with these (new, bent 2° flat) irons, the line transfers vertically.   Ultimately, getting fit would be my recommendation. It’ll cost you anywhere from $50-150 (typically), but it’s worth it (IMO) in the long run. (For what it’s worth, some places will fit you for free if you buy a set…)  For me, it’s worth doing every so often, in case I’m in the market for a new set of irons - then I can order them directly to my specs.    Good luck!!

Fifteen years ago, and at least 1 major swing changes ago, I was fit with ping G series and 2* upright.  I’ve always felt I’ve been fighting the clubs in recent years.  My normal iron trajectory is a slight draw but in the last few years getting more and more slight fades. 

Have been hitting Miz 923HM at pgass recently and have hit them pretty well.  I haven’t  played the last 6 weeks and tried them again over xmas and swing wasn’t quite right and everything had 150-250 R spin.  Not bad shots but not what I want.  The clubs were 2* upright.  

A different sales agent comes by and we start talking and he watches my swing, then asks what lie I’m hitting.  He then asks, what makes you thing you should be 2* upright, and I tell him my history.  He says, it’s forcing you to setup too close, and you don’t have the hip clearance to get through the swing and you’re getting stuck.  Interesting, as I’ve heard that terminology, but never knew what it means.  Still not sure I do.  He did the sticker test then switched me to 2* flat and instant improvement.

So, not sure what to think, and as I’m walking out, I run into a lady I used to work with, and haven’t seen since I retired 8 years ago.  We talked, she works there part time after she retired, told me “Jeff” is their most in demand fitter.  So, I’m clearing my mind on my next fitting.    

• Jason Costain and GolfSpy SAM

Iron A Nelson : 58 deg, LB 

2 hours ago, FreddyTheBearCat said: Let me start off by saying I'm not a great golfer so I don't know how much it matters but, here goes: I had a couple of lessons and the instructor basically said that I should think about adjusting my irons 1° upright.  I think it's because my miss hits are toey? Anyway from reading online and videos etc. based on my height and wrist-to-floor (5'11 & 33") I should actually bend my irons 1° flat.  Before I do anything, just thought I'd get some advice. Thanks in advance!

Static measurements are a place to start;  what you have done is actually swung a club and someone observed what was actually happening at impact and what what happening with your ball flight.   There can be many reasons to adjust a clubs lie angle and it might not just be because you are hitting the club on the toe;  that could be related to the length of the club.   If you are still taking lessons,  why not ask the instructor what he is trying to correct and if that correction would be something that would be worked on during the lesson.   I say that because my miss is toe and it was caused by and issue that  was happening in my swing which is something we started trying to fix.    If you are missing right you might benefit from going more upright like your instructor has recommended

Here's an article to read about lie angle:  https://practical-golf.com/lie-angle/

• David Leighton Reid and GolfSpy SAM

2 hours ago, GaryF said: Fifteen years ago, and at least 1 major swing changes ago, I was fit with ping G series and 2* upright.  I’ve always felt I’ve been fighting the clubs in recent years.  My normal iron trajectory is a slight draw but in the last few years getting more and more slight fades.  Have been hitting Miz 923HM at pgass recently and have hit them pretty well.  I haven’t  played the last 6 weeks and tried them again over xmas and swing wasn’t quite right and everything had 150-250 R spin.  Not bad shots but not what I want.  The clubs were 2* upright.   A different sales agent comes by and we start talking and he watches my swing, then asks what lie I’m hitting.  He then asks, what makes you thing you should be 2* upright, and I tell him my history.  He says, it’s forcing you to setup too close, and you don’t have the hip clearance to get through the swing and you’re getting stuck.  Interesting, as I’ve heard that terminology, but never knew what it means.  Still not sure I do.  He did the sticker test then switched me to 2* flat and instant improvement. So, not sure what to think, and as I’m walking out, I run into a lady I used to work with, and haven’t seen since I retired 8 years ago.  We talked, she works there part time after she retired, told me “Jeff” is their most in demand fitter.  So, I’m clearing my mind on my next fitting.      

There are no standards when it comes to lie, loft or length. Saying 2° has to be in reference to a certain lie angle.   

As an example Ping i230 are 62° while titleist t200 is 63°

• GaryF and RollingGreens

Cool I really appreciate all the info, I chatted with my instructor and the suggestion was made because I go right literally all the time. I'm gonna try out some of these static lie tests though. Again Cheers for the help!

• GolfSpy_APH and cnosil

35 minutes ago, FreddyTheBearCat said: Cool I really appreciate all the info, I chatted with my instructor and the suggestion was made because I go right literally all the time. I'm gonna try out some of these static lie tests though. Again Cheers for the help!

A static lie test is the wrong thing to do. The only valid lie angle test is the sharpe test. 

• marktama and MattF

4 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said: A static lie test is the wrong thing to do. The only valid lie angle test is the sharpe test. 

Will do! Thanks man

David Leighton Reid

I played standard lie for several years and always played a cut with my irons.  In Ping's online fitting, I fall into the black dot or standard category.  Through experimentation, I found that 2° upright straightened my ball flight.  As mentioned above, I believe the correct lie angle is unique to the individuals swing.  

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Ping G425 Max 9° w/UST MP5 L-Flex

PXG Gen 5 0311XF 8° w/Grafalloy ProLaunch 45 A-Flex

Ping G410 3 wood 14.5° w/Ventus Velocore Blue-6R tipped 1"

Cleveland Halo Launcher 5 wood 18° with Project X Cypher R

Callaway Rogue 19° hybrid regular

PXG Gen 3 0311XF 5 - G steel regular

Corey Paul wedges bent to 53° and 58°

Taylormade Spider X putter

What matters with lie angle is what you do at impact and while you certainly can change direction with lie angle - more upright to move the ball left, flat to move it right - I would question the instructor a bit on his advice. Reason being that changing the lie angle could impact turf interaction, strike location, etc... If your dynamic lie recommendation (fitting) is 1* upright that's one thing, but otherwise you should be addressing whatever swing/strike issue is causing the right miss. Based on the information provided, it sounds like the instructor is trying to give you a band-aid fix that likely won't remedy the actual problem.

Having said that, there's a lot of context missing for us to fully understand your needs and what the "right" path is in order to help you achieve your current goals. Don't take my thoughts as me saying your instructor is wrong in some way, but simply I would want to be more inquisitive about the recommendation and what the implications are long term. Has he done anything to actually measure lie or is he just going off of ball flight? Does he intend for this to be a quick fix while continuing to work on other factors? One degree isn't much but if it does create other issues, how should they be addressed?

Food for thought.

One thing I found out about lie angles is that there was a noticeable difference between using a lie board and the sharpie line method, and the lie angles aren't necessarily the same for each club so should check them all. My lie angles were much more upright when using the lie board, about 2 degrees.

10 minutes ago, AzRoger said: One thing I found out about lie angles is that there was a noticeable difference between using a lie board and the sharpie line method, and the lie angles aren't necessarily the same for each club so should check them all. My lie angles were much more upright when using the lie board, about 2 degrees.

• marktama , GolfSpy_APH , TR1PTIK and 1 other

On 1/5/2023 at 12:14 PM, TR1PTIK said: What matters with lie angle is what you do at impact and while you certainly can change direction with lie angle - more upright to move the ball left, flat to move it right - I would question the instructor a bit on his advice. Reason being that changing the lie angle could impact turf interaction, strike location, etc... If your dynamic lie recommendation (fitting) is 1* upright that's one thing, but otherwise you should be addressing whatever swing/strike issue is causing the right miss. Based on the information provided, it sounds like the instructor is trying to give you a band-aid fix that likely won't remedy the actual problem. Having said that, there's a lot of context missing for us to fully understand your needs and what the "right" path is in order to help you achieve your current goals. Don't take my thoughts as me saying your instructor is wrong in some way, but simply I would want to be more inquisitive about the recommendation and what the implications are long term. Has he done anything to actually measure lie or is he just going off of ball flight? Does he intend for this to be a quick fix while continuing to work on other factors? One degree isn't much but if it does create other issues, how should they be addressed? Food for thought.

I agree I left it kind of ambiguous, I had a few lessons, some at the range and some in a sim (don’t know what monitor they used) but basically my swing was all over the place. I’m self taught so just kind of picked up clubs and started swinging. Anyway she started breaking down all my flaws into fixes for example I was coming in over the top. I wasn’t rotating, all arms etc. basically like I said just a mess. When we worked out that and my swing improved, she made the suggestion at that point about the lie angle change.

I would say overall I have worked out a lot of my swing issues, it’s by no means perfect and ideally I’d get fitted properly for some clubs that suit me better. Unfortunately, that’s not in the budget right now, so I think that was her “do what you can with what you’re working with” type of solution for my old hand me down clubs.  

To be fair, I would say 98% of it is me and just needing to put in the work to get better. All that said, I’m not slagging her, she helped me improve tremendously. I was shooting in the 120’s before those lessons and ended the season shooting in the low 90’s pretty consistently. But, I’ll take all the help I can get honestly…as cheaply as possible lol so a lie angle change in lieu of new irons has to be it for now. 

I've seen two tour players getting fit for new irons... What they do is

- NOT look at a lie board or sticker ("it's called lie board for a reason, it lies" said one fitter) but instead on GCQuad after all is done and dusted...

- start with a static (or in their case, a "my usual specs are... ")

- have them hit their stock shots 2 times with a new iron (not more, then they'd adjust, unconsciously. Us, mere mortals, don't have that problem)

- If the balls tend to draw too much: make it a bit flater and try again

- if the balls tend to fade too much for their liking: make it steeper, and try again.

They look then at centredness of strike and adjust again if needed.

Then they look on Quad: is the club presented "approximately level"... If no cycle again through the process.

Apprently a number of players (tour or not) prefer not having a club delivered exactly parallel to the ground as it helps them manage the curvature of their stock shots, or achieve a particular curvature more easily (or if they tend to hit a bit too much on the toe or the heel, to adjust that). So it's really not the static fit that will dictate things, nor the mark on a sticker on the bottom of the sole, not even the alignment of the face at impact but the ball flight and feels...

I mean as usual, ball flight trumps everything, right... We don't care what the club does as long as the ball goes where we want in the way we want it to do it!

• GregGarner , FreddyTheBearCat and GolfSpy SAM

Aim small... pray to miss small

My bag: Ping hoofer lite. My driver: Nike Vapor Pro. 4w: Inesis 500. Hybrid: Nike Vapor Flex. Irons (4-PW): Takomo 301 combo on KBS tour X. Wedges: Vokey SM7 52° and 58°. Putter: Cleveland Classic HB1. Balls: Inesis Tour900 yellow.

1 hour ago, Franc38 said: have them hit their stock shots 2 times with a new iron (not more, then they'd adjust, unconsciously. Us, mere mortals, don't have that problem)

Actually everyone does this regardless of skillset. Based on what they see in ball flight or feel in their hands from the weight or balance of the club a golfer will adjust their swing to try and achieve a certain result. Even more so if the fitter is giving them numbers for launch and spin after each shot. It’s why fitters have the golfer take no more than 3-5 swings.   

The difference between the pros and ams is how quick they can recognize something isn’t right and adjust. Along with the consistency from shot to shot

caryncgolfer

• 3 weeks later...

On 1/12/2023 at 7:30 AM, RickyBobby_PR said: Actually everyone does this regardless of skillset. Based on what they see in ball flight or feel in their hands from the weight or balance of the club a golfer will adjust their swing to try and achieve a certain result. Even more so if the fitter is giving them numbers for launch and spin after each shot. It’s why fitters have the golfer take no more than 3-5 swings.    The difference between the pros and ams is how quick they can recognize something isn’t right and adjust. Along with the consistency from shot to shot

Seconded. And even better, you can try it for yourself. If you go with extremes (esp with drivers), it makes it easier to see it in action. For example, hit two shots with a Ping SFT lofted up and/or in an upright setting and then two shots with an LST lofted down and/or in a flat setting. You will probably have a visceral reaction to how different the two are. Then the fun part: pick one and hit it for ~a dozen swings or so. THEN try to switch... You may not actually be able to hit the ball.

The body is subconsciously tracking where it expects the center of gravity to be and if/when it's in the "wrong" place, it'll start making small adjustments.

Fun update: previously at GolfTec (using lie board and sharpie), was fitted to 2° flat. At recent fitting using GC Quad, I deliver club 2° toe down, lol. Fitter suggesting quite plainly that I need to be in something at least 1° upright (depending on OEM stock lie angle). My miss is most definitely right, so... Curious if upright 1° would help with that. 

Ultimately, I'm not ordering new irons just yet, but I thought it was an interesting update to share. 

10 hours ago, GolfSpy_SAM said: Fun update: previously at GolfTec (using lie board and sharpie), was fitted to 2° flat. At recent fitting using GC Quad, I deliver club 2° toe down, lol. Fitter suggesting quite plainly that I need to be in something at least 1° upright (depending on OEM stock lie angle). My miss is most definitely right, so... Curious if upright 1° would help with that.  Ultimately, I'm not ordering new irons just yet, but I thought it was an interesting update to share. 

That 1° is about 2-3 yards. Will it change anything? Only making the change and seeing what happens will tell.   

Do the sharpie test and see if it matches what gc quad says.   

Find a shop and have them adjust that iron and then re test

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"Rory McIlroy's irons are too upright by 2 degrees" says PGA Tour coach

Paul casey's golf coach peter kostis believes mcilroy' short irons are too upright and contributing to his problems in 2021.

PGA Tour golf coach Peter Kostis believes Rory McIlroy's short irons are "too upright" and as a result are causing him to hit too many pull hooks with his golf shots in 2021. 

Kostis, the former golf coach of Bernhard Langer and the current coach of in-form Paul Casey, took to Twitter last week to reveal his thoughts on why McIlroy currently ranks outside the top 100 when it comes to strokes-gained approach the green on the PGA Tour this season. 

Everyone is analyzing Rorys' swing with the wedges & short irons for his poor numbers from 50-150 yds. They are missing the root cause of the swing issues. IMO his short irons are too upright by at least 2 deg. causing pull/hooks with a good swing and then he guards against that. — Peter Kostis (@peterjkostis) February 6, 2021

"They are missing the root cause of the swing issues. IMO his short irons are too upright by at least 2 deg. causing pull/hooks with a good swing and then he guards against that."

Kostis added: "As the swing gets more 'around' and less 'upright', and Rory has done that in the last few years, then the clubs must be adjusted accordingly. If he has stayed with his old specs, I believe they don't fit his swing shape now. Just my opinion."

The story is a little different at the top end, however, with McIlroy ranking second in strokes-gained off the tee (1.196). 

WE TOOK A LOOK INSIDE RORY MCILROY'S NEW BAG FOR 2021. WATCH THE VIDEO BELOW:

When it comes to golf club fitting, if a club is too upright at impact then shots will typically travel to the left of the intended target. Conversely, if a club is too flat, then shots will head to the right. 

From what we have learned during our previous custom fit sessions down the years, if a golfer's lie angle is either too upright or flat, the golf ball will initially travel approximately four yards off the intended target line. 

The European Tour recently posted a graphic of exactly how far McIlroy hits each of the clubs in his golf bag this season: 

Could well be! And SO much spin generally with fast hands/club head. Hard to get pinpoint accuracy with it fizzing inconsistent distances IMO. I don’t know how accurate this is but distances between clubs is so variable. A LW that goes 90 would be a good start. pic.twitter.com/530RfJmN7G — Tony Johnstone (@TonyJohnstone56) February 6, 2021

McIlroy, the World No.6, held every chance to win the Abu Dhabi HSBC Championship at the end of January but could only salvage a solo third. He then went on to finish tied 16th at the Farmers Insurance Open before rallying late with a 64 to finish tied 13th in his last start at the Phoenix Open.

The Truth About Lie Angle In Golf Clubs: What It Is, Why It Matters

The "lie angle" of any golf club is the angle formed between the center of the shaft and the sole, or ground line, of the club when the club is soled in its proper playing position (as at address). Picture the club properly soled on flat ground, with a straight line extending back from the heel of the club along the ground. Now imagine measuring the angle from that line up to the shaft. That's the lie angle.

Lie angle is a factor that affects the accuracy of golf shots. Golfers who use clubs whose lie angles don't fit their body types and/or golf swings are costing themselves strokes. Matching the lie angle of clubs to the specific golfer is one of the goals of a clubfitting session.

Lie angles almost always range from the mid-50 degrees (in drivers) to the mid-60 degrees (in short irons). In irons, the range is typically from 59 or 60 degrees to around 64 degrees. (Lie angles on putters reach into the 70s.)

'Flat' and 'Upright' Are Important Adjectives for Lie Angles

Lie angle is an important factor in clubfitting (making sure one's golf clubs properly fit one's body and swing). And there are three terms used in fitting golfers for lie angle:

• Standard lie angle : What off-the-shelf golf clubs are designed with.
• Flat lie angle : A lie angle that is lower than the standard lie angle (a 62-degree lie angle on a 9-iron is flatter than the standard 9-iron lie angle of around 64 degrees);
• Upright lie angle : A lie angle that is higher than the standard lie angle (a 66-degree lie angle on a 9-iron is more upright than the standard 9-iron lie angle of around 64 degrees).

You might hear a golfer (or clubfitter) saying things such as, "You need flatter lie angles on your irons," or "I had my irons bent 1-degree upright."

The Impact of Lie Angle on Golf Shots

The lie angle of your clubs needs to fit your game, your swing, your body. And if the lie angle of your clubs is ill-suited to you? Bad things can happen to your golf shots.

When the lie angle of your clubs is wrong for your swing or body type, you can put a great swing on the ball and still have problems with accuracy. Poorly fitting lie angles create pushes and pulls and other mishits.

Tom Wishon, a longtime golf club designer and manufacturer and founder of Tom Wishon Golf Technology , explains:

"The lie angle is considered to be perfect for the golfer when the sole arrives at impact perfectly parallel to the ground.

"If the lie angle is incorrect for the golfer, such that the toe of the clubhead is tilted well up in relation to the heel, the face is automatically pointing to the hook side of the target line. Conversely, if the clubhead arrives at impact tilted with the heel well up compared to the toe, the face of the clubhead is pointing to the slice side of the target line."

We can restate that in a way that helps readers visualize what Wishon is explaining:

• If the toe of the club is up (relative to the heel) at impact, the clubface will point to the left (for a right-handed golfer);
• If the heel is up (relative to the toe) at impact, the clubface will point to the right (for a right-handed golfer).

A toe-up position at impact indicates that your lie angle might be too upright; a toe-down position (meaning the club's heel is higher than the toe) at impact indicates that your lie angle might be too flat.

In addition to the effects on your shots telling you there might be a problem with the lie angles of your clubs, your divots can also offer clues. If your divots are deeper on the toe side than the heel side (toe down, heel up at impact) or deeper on the heel side than the toe side (toe up, heel down at impact), that's a sign your lie angles might be too flat or too upright.

Proper Lie Angle Is More Important in Irons Than in Woods

Don't misunderstand: Lie angle is an important factor in all golf clubs, even the putter. But having improperly fit lie angles causes more problems in irons than in the woods.

"The greater the loft on the face of the clubhead, the more off-line the face will point when the lie angle is not correct for the golfer," Wishon explains. "Thus, the lie angle is much more important to be fit to the golfer in the irons than it is in the woods, since irons have a little to a lot more loft than do woods."

Lie Angles Checked During Clubfitting

If you think the lie angles on your golf clubs might be ill-fitting, visit a clubfitter. The clubfitter will check out you and your clubs by taking measurements and monitoring your swings. If there's a problem with lie angles, most (but not all) irons can be bent at the hosel to increase or decrease the lie angle.

And if you are serious about golf, want to maximize your scoring ability, and are shopping for new clubs, visit a clubfitter first. Find out if you need upright or flat lie angles before spending the money on new clubs.

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